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Riseofpersia.com • View topic - Iranian Women Warriors

Riseofpersia.com

Rise of Persia - a full modification for Rome: Total War, based around the rise of the Achaemenid Persian dynasty.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:44 pm 
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Well, it is interesting that we can discuss our differences, Babak. A good start would be to review the transliteration of the Arabic script:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arabic_alphabet.png

This is rooted in the Kufic script, yet has none of the changes that Ferdowsi brought forth. You see, there is a slight difference in the "Persian" script and the original Arabic one. You say there is a "V" sound. I disagree, and I speak Gulf Arabic very fluently (Bacheyê Khûzestânî, wolek! :P ), that letter you refer to (waw) is instead pronounced "vâv" in Persian. This is a "corruption". What more is featured in the Persian alphabet? "Pê". It looks like "Bê" but instead of one dot beneath the curve, it has three dots shaped into a downward arrow. This letter does not exist in the Arabic. Here comes the filler in the lack of context: Who brought these changes to the alphabet? A little hint: We've discussed about him and his works.

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First I should say Ferdowsi was no court poet of the Ghaznavid Khan. The Ghaznavids' ascension to throne occured when there was little left of Shahnameh's compilation.


That may actually be correct, regarding when he became the court poet of Mahmud, but it is clear that Ferdowsi had Turkish servants by that time, and it is quite interesting that Turks are featured so prominently and honourably in his great work. I'd say there is more to the issue. Ferdowsi lived in turbulent circumstances and there is indeed an honourary mention of the Samanids (I really can't figure out why though... I've always considered them Islamophiles next to the Buyids, nothing like the Saffarids, or the Ziyarids or even the redclads of Babak), in particular his description of the Sassanid fall. You bring up an interesting point: He needed a regal sponsor. But friend, he got a monetary compensation, so perhaps he was not a court poet per se (Lingering around the throne like a mere servant), but he did nonetheless get paid. That suffices for me.

Quote:
I disagree with your idea. Ferdowsi never became "a victim of the times". If he was to become a victim of the times, he would have never succeeded in reviving Persian language to such an amount.


Well, you could see it in that way. I see it more like his revival of the language was a journey full of compromises. This new Pârsî language had to use a modified Kufic script, and with the original Xwâtay-î Nâmig being fragmented, as is most Sassanian written history that survived the Islamic onslaught, Ferdowsi had nothing but fragments, oral traditions and an entirely different script to his creative arsenal. It makes his achievement so much more grand, yet these limitations were clearly imposing on him. In spite of a revitalized Persian, there is still a miniscule amount of Arabic, emphasizing that he had very few resources to his disposal. He was however blessed to have been born in the eastern reaches, for there the lingual tradition was stronger than in the western reaches. A victim of the times he was, but with these pointers I hope you've understood that I refer to what little he had to use in his quest, for otherwise his spirit was anything but the reflection of a victim. I would be the last person to downplay his masterpiece as it is perhaps the loftiest pillar of what Iranian culture is. People say if nothing is broken, don't fix it. Ferdowsi's tools were broken, so he fixed them. Including the script :wink:

Flieger wrote:
Although this has changed and Germany (and Austria) has become a quite good place for Iranian historians, my view is still that of a classicist (and I won't put that word in inverted commas for political correctness - but that is another story...), therefore I value such Iranian input, no matter how "educated" it may be.


Germany is the heaven of Iranology. I am actually writing my doctorate essay (On Iranian cultural losses during the Islamic invasion) to have it submitted to the Georg-August University of Göttingen, as that is most probably the cradle of Iranology in Europe. A very classy institute. I find Germans to be especially fascinated by Alexander The Great, and even more so Greek culture. However people like Franz Bopp and a number of German archaeologists who have specialized themselves on "Persia" have contributed tremendously to Iranology.

The Orlat plaque is interesting, isn't it? The dating is just a bitch, and the debates regarding this piece are among the worst I've seen yet. It is the basis for almost all known Montvert and Osprey plates on Iranian heavy cavalry after the Macedonian invasions, and prior to late Parthian and Sakae artifacts. Some say it is Xiong-Nu (Quite late), some say it is Soghdian (Quite early).

This article sums it up perfectly:

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Art/sogdian_heroic_art.htm


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:22 pm 
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FliegerAD wrote:
In Germany we were and are very graecophil, even up to point, when Germany's states supported the Greek independence war, yet even made the Greek state possible

Ah I'm very interested in German (& Gaul & Briton & eastern European)
History, say around the same time as this mod.
Mostly because I'm raised and live in Holland and have become intrigued by their Batavian history, but it seems like they aren't really proud enough of that time area, so they know little about it when I ask them.

But this place would be a good place to gather more information I guess :P
So could you elaborate a bit more about how the German states supported the Greek independence war, cause I've never heard of that before and didn't even know the Germans were that well organised in those times to have states and that far reaching foreign policy... :shock:

And another thing: I would really want to know where the German Aryanism (not the religion) actually comes from, cause as you might know Iran means 'land of the Aryans'. Do you know if those backgrounds are the same?
did the Aryan tribe at some time split up? migrating (from the Caucasus) to the south to Iran and India, but also to the north to Germany :?:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:13 pm 
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Hello guys;
Firstly ,Thanks to those who singed the petition and hope the others do the same ,because it is part of the human's history not just Iran.

Farsi1986 wrote:
did the Aryan tribe at some time split up? migrating (from the Caucasus) to the south to Iran and India, but also to the north to Germany
As far as i know ,One branch of aryans went to europe ,but Not germany.If I'm not mistaken ,They migrated to Greece-Athen. That means ,Athenians were somehow ,Aryans.AFAIK ,There was a greek legend says that Persian were greek also :!: :?: I'm sure Flieger and Savar'e Parsi can respond you better.

@Farsi1986 in finglish
Milad ,Az chand salegy holland zendegy mikoni? Parsit be nazar khob myad :)

With Regards


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Kami wrote:
As far as i know ,One branch of aryans went to europe ,but Not germany.If I'm not mistaken ,They migrated to Greece-Athen. That means ,Athenians were somehow ,Aryans.AFAIK ,There was a greek legend says that Persian were greek also :!: :?: I'm sure Flieger and Savar'e Parsi can respond you better.

@Farsi1986 in finglish
Milad ,Az chand salegy holland zendegy mikoni? Parsit be nazar khob myad :)

Wow ok, I didn't know that either... :P Seems like these Aryans had sómething special then... creating these 2 'Superior' civilisations :roll:

@Kambiz agha
Man az 6 salegi Holland zendegi mikonam, Vali Parsi'm ounghadar khoub nist valla :P Iran miram taze mibinam ke kheli kalame'a nemidounam, bayad nesve jomle'am'o Englisi begam :P
Halla vali shayad yejourai ham khoub bashe, intor ke fahmidam Parsië alan ziadi Arabi shode. Hanouz adat nakardam shayad Parsië dorost alan zood yadbegiram :wink:

'Ba Sepas' :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:27 am 
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Well, it's very joyful for me to have a discussion on Shahnameh with you, Persian cataphract; as I'm working on a major project about Shahnameh and would like to find out about more things.

The Persian Cataphract wrote:
Well, it is interesting that we can discuss our differences, Babak. A good start would be to review the transliteration of the Arabic script:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arabic_alphabet.png

This is rooted in the Kufic script, yet has none of the changes that Ferdowsi brought forth. You see, there is a slight difference in the "Persian" script and the original Arabic one. You say there is a "V" sound. I disagree, and I speak Gulf Arabic very fluently (Bacheyê Khûzestânî, wolek! :P ), that letter you refer to (waw) is instead pronounced "vâv" in Persian. This is a "corruption". What more is featured in the Persian alphabet? "Pê". It looks like "Bê" but instead of one dot beneath the curve, it has three dots shaped into a downward arrow. This letter does not exist in the Arabic. Here comes the filler in the lack of context: Who brought these changes to the alphabet? A little hint: We've discussed about him and his works.


Well, I certainly know about the Arabic script and its minor differences with modern Persian script. But I think when the Persians were about to accept the Arabic script - having to apply it to their own language - they made those four additional letters and I'm pretty sure these letters were used in their modern form in the era in which Ferdowsi lived. But I felt (through this part and the later parts of your post) that you're saying Ferdowsi did this. I hope I haven't got you wrong. But if you meant so, you're wrong. Because even before Ferdowsi was born, Rudaki made his poems using Persian language written with Arabic alphabet. But even Rudaki has used these four persian letters in their modern forms.

The Persian Cataphract wrote:
That may actually be correct, regarding when he became the court poet of Mahmud, but it is clear that Ferdowsi had Turkish servants by that time, and it is quite interesting that Turks are featured so prominently and honourably in his great work. I'd say there is more to the issue. Ferdowsi lived in turbulent circumstances and there is indeed an honourary mention of the Samanids (I really can't figure out why though... I've always considered them Islamophiles next to the Buyids, nothing like the Saffarids, or the Ziyarids or even the redclads of Babak), in particular his description of the Sassanid fall. You bring up an interesting point: He needed a regal sponsor. But friend, he got a monetary compensation, so perhaps he was not a court poet per se (Lingering around the throne like a mere servant), but he did nonetheless get paid. That suffices for me.


Ferdowsi has shown his contempt for the Turks in his entire book. And if the Turks are featured "so prominently" (and of course not honourably), it's because the epic parts of Shahnameh occur in an era of great battles with Turks, the first centuries of Parthians dominion. Nearly all especialists of Persian literature accept that the epic battles in these parts of Shahnameh are used to depict the decisive battles of the first ten Parthian kings with Turkish tribes of Central asia.

Why do you think of Samanids as Islamophils? They were of course much better than Safarids and Zyarids, even if not as good as redclad of Babak. If you're talking about their race, they were Persians of noble birth. They were descendants of the Sassanid court nobles who fled to central asia during Arab invasion. And considering their cultural interests, they were the chief abettors of Pre-islamic Persian culture and were the sole reason for indurance of Iranian traditions and even Persian language. They were surely of the best rulers who took a role in Iran's post-islamic history.

Legends say Ferdowsi gave the little compensation to a wine-seller. And twenty thousand derhams were of quite low value in those times, as he was promised to be given sixty thousand dinars (each dinar is worth one hundred derhams). So it can't be said that Ferdowsi did actually "get paid".

The Persian Cataphract wrote:
and with the original Xwâtay-î Nâmig being fragmented, as is most Sassanian written history that survived the Islamic onslaught, Ferdowsi had nothing but fragments, oral traditions and an entirely different script to his creative arsenal.

Ferdowsi's main resource for Shahnameh was not Xwatay-i Namig (Khoday-nameh), but the Shahnameh of Abu Mansur ibn-e Abdolrazzagh, which was compiled by four Zoroastrian scholars by the order of the Samanid prince. Xwatay-i namig was one of the sources for Abu Mansur's Shahnameh, but not the prominent one. So Ferdowsi compared these two books and tried to figure out the best way to retell the stories. Abu-Mansur's shahnameh was written in the Perso-Arabic script (as it still exists) with all four Persian letters.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:53 am 
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Ba dorood;
Milad wrote:
Halla vali shayad yejourai ham khoub bashe, intor ke fahmidam Parsië alan ziadi Arabi shode. Hanouz adat nakardam shayad Parsië dorost alan zood yadbegiram
Dorost migi ,Zyadi arabi shode (Mishe goft 50-50) :( Ke Dorost nist. Baraye dorost shodanesh ham nakhost bayad in regime ke doshman'e Iran o Iranist az myan bere ya dastekam eslah beshe.
Rasti Iran omadi ye sari ham be ma bezan :wink:

Be omid'e irane AZAD

P.S : "Babak" & "Savar'e Parsi" I really enjoyed your discussion over "Ferdowsi the great" :) Keep the good work comrades


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:36 pm 
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Kami wrote:
Be omid'e irane AZAD

Dar Entezar.....Image


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:45 pm 
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Well, dearest Babak, it seems that even persons who strive to become academics have their days of embarassment and days of harsh remindings. Hats off to you, for it seems that a classic schooling and common "folk knowledge" from early childhood finally had to cave in to facts :wink:

I had completely overlooked Rudaki, a most excellent poet, and instead jumped on to the bandwagon of common belief that it was Ferdowsi who in conjunction with his revival of Persian also introduced a reformed nomenclature. However, this is by no means a hand-over of the "reformed alphabet" to Rudaki. At least not until I do some more research on his life and his achievements, beyond his epithet.

Quote:
Ferdowsi has shown his contempt for the Turks in his entire book. And if the Turks are featured "so prominently" (and of course not honourably), it's because the epic parts of Shahnameh occur in an era of great battles with Turks, the first centuries of Parthians dominion. Nearly all especialists of Persian literature accept that the epic battles in these parts of Shahnameh are used to depict the decisive battles of the first ten Parthian kings with Turkish tribes of Central asia.


There are pockets here and there showcasing Turkish dignity, and it is correct that he (Ferdowsi) showed his contempt throughout the book, but these pockets are comparable to Herodotus' sayings about the Persians (Medes), and there is of course a great chunk of antagonism, but at the same time pockets of dignity. Afrâsiyâb was depicted as an evil king of the Turks, yet this is also where the beauty of Ferdowsi's characters takes shape; Afrâsiyâb was not merely an evil king of the common archetype. He was cunning, able and the most magnificent of the Tûrân kings, and Ferdowsi's inspiration was directly drawn from Avestan sources. Yes, he was endowed with the blessing of Ahriman, but what does all of this imply? It is a phenomenom among Turks and Turcomen of today, and there is no doubt that Shâhnâmêh has done plenty, perhaps indirectly, of giving the Turks a mythical identity next to the "Asina" legend (Or the Grey Wolf myth as it also is called).

It is argued that the lack of historical reference to the Pahlavân, lead to the more folk-loric and mythical Kâyânî being the "avatar" of the Parthians. I treat it merely as a deeper form of entertainment, as the Parthians never encountered any Turkic peoples at war.

Quote:
Why do you think of Samanids as Islamophils?


Official adoption of Islam, and treaty of vassalage towards the Caliphate. They were largely responsible for spreading Islam throughout Central Asia, which would follow with a consequence of catastrophical proportions, a few centuries later. Samanids revived much of the Persian culture, but they remained servile, and furthered Islam. Neither Ziyarids, nor the Saffarids did this. Saman Khuda did not do a thing for Iran compared to Yaqub-î Leis of Saffar, nor does he compare to Mardâvîj of the Ziyâr. The Samanids are what I'd like to call the Iranians who historically correspond to the Iranians today who celebrate Châhâr Shanbê Sûrî, yet when jumping over the fires yell "Ya Abelfezl!". This is nothing like the Mêhregân or Sâdêh that Mardâvîj honoured, nor anything like Yaqub's chief achievement of driving away Arab usurpers from Iran.

Bâbak Khurramdîn however remains perhaps the greatest icon of a Iran wanting to release itself from Islam. So much that she was even willing to ally with an arch-enemy with over a thousand years of mutual bloodshed; The Greeks of the Byzantine Empire. It was not the first time Iranians and Greeks could build a bridge over their common interests, for at Al-Firad during the Islamic invasions, Sassanians and Byzantines fought side by side to repel the muslims. The Samanids, with all due respect to their tremendous cultural achievements, had no interest in overthrowing the Caliphate even though at the height of Samanid power, they were perfectly able to muster the dreaded Transoxianian heavy cavalry, better than any mounted warriors of the Caliphate.

The Samanids needed legitimacy to their rule, but at the moment where Saman Khuda claimed descent from the Sassanids, they betrayed the image by propagating for an ideology, the very essence that killed the Partho-Sassanian culture. No, I am not speaking of race, I am speaking of ideals, friend. The Iranian East was always a stronghold of Iranian culture, but dismissing Hyrcania (Gurgân and Dailam), Seistân and Âdarbâdegân, in which Iranian language, religion and culture persisted in spite of the ongoing calamity, is to dismiss an entire facet of Iran's political situation the few centuries after the Islamic invasion. Do not fall into this trap. The Iranian East was rich in culture, and I think it is wrong to accord the entire credit on Samanid behalf.

Quote:
So it can't be said that Ferdowsi did actually "get paid".


It is true that he was tricked, and given a compensation far less than agreed. Yet it is remarkable that he is given money for writing epic poetry. It must be the modern problem that authors face today whenever someone asks them "What's your daytime job?" :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:25 am 
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hi boys, you know I am a bit MIA atm. Sorry, I have no time, hopefully I can answer next week.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Ok, first on that matter:

It was after the great Napoleonic Wars had devastated Germany, but the German states became much stronger, especially Prussia. A notable part of the so-called Befreiungskriege (Wars of Liberation) against Napoleon was the fact, that German scholars and students voluntarily joined the army to free the fatherland. Usually these scholars were classicists, inspired by the Greeks’ wars against the slavish tyranny, the Persians.

When the wars were over, they still wanted the achievements of the French revolution, rights and liberties, but the Kings and Emperors of Europe made the dreaded Restauration, restored everything to pre-revolutionary status.
The classicists and their Philhellenism formed an opposing ideology against the Restauration. Meanwhile the first scholar excavations in Greece had started, in the beginning under Turkish supervision. The growing contacts between the graecophil Europeans (not only Germans of course) and the Greeks, made the Greeks rediscover their identity. Prior to the 19th century, they had simply no interest in the ruins, in the classic works etc., often used ruins as stone pit, never making any attempt to protect and preserve them in any way.

It was also the time, people all around the world revolted, and the Greeks with their rediscovered identity longed for freedom, as their ancient rolemodels had done before, against the eastern tyranny.
The German kings had little interest in their war of independence, but as you can imagine, the imperialistic colonial powers France and Britain had very vivid interest in the weakening of the Turkish power, likewise Russia.
The German population however cheered for the Greeks, volunteers joined the battle in Greece and supported the Greeks with money and supply – privately. Some kings, like Ludwig I. of Bavaria, were also involved secretly, for their love of ancient fine arts.

When the battles in Greece were coming to an end, the Greeks build up a new state and as the Restauration would never allow a democratic state, they needed a King. But where should they find one? In Germany. Ludwig’s son, Otto, became King of Greece making it a legal independent state. Only Otto I. of Greece was accepted by all the powers who had interest in Greek independence, especially Britain. He was not all to popular during his later reign, though. His successors were of German descent until Greece became a republic, although all of them claimed to be descendents of Kommnenos and Lakaris.

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